Talk:Grade

From PaddleGuide

I don't like grades, but I think they're an evil necessity on a site such as this. I've started to explain the grading system on the new Grade page. It would be good if all grades across the site were given in roman numerals as I feel it makes them easier to pick out. Not sure what a grade template would do, what was your idea Pollitt?

Charlie 04:15, 21 August 2007 (MDT)

I think the grading system is good and bad. It clasifies rapids and allows people to know what to expect from that rapid however i think its to.... inconsistent. Someones veiw of a rapid is different from the next. Point in example, Pont D'arc rapid on the ardeche. Water wise it's a grade 2, There are clear channels, no big drops, if you swim you can get out easy however because there is no absolutely clear line (especially in lower water) i know many that class it as grade 3. Fair enough its grade 3 then... but the number of rent'a'crash [PGL slang] that go down it and yet even though some may get stuck on rocks they fair ok. This one rapid can then turn the ardeche into a grade 3 river as its the highest class rapid on the river. The River Wye can be seen as a grade 2 river (due to rapids like symonds yat) and yet people can paddle for 2 or 3 days and encounter nothing more than slight flow increase here and there.

How do we counter this?

my suggestion is we class rivers by type and in the type info box we add extra info boxs that can contain rapid classes. a bit like this:-

River - Ardeche

Type - Classic touring + basic moving water

Common Rapid Grade - 2

Highest Rapid Grade - 3

To coinside with this new system we should add an extra part to the River template page such as 'Hazards' or 'Features' where a list of river features with known names/locations can be put in starting from source finishing at the mouth. For example on the ardeche

Valon weir (not shootable); Peach A(G1-G2); Peach B (G1); Post office A (G1-2); Post B (G2); Air France (G2); Pont D'arc (G3); Tois Eaux (G1);

You get the idea. Obviously features missed out by one user can be added to by another (thus the benifit of the wiki). The problem with this i can see is rivers that dont have well named rapids and you end up getting something like 'Rapid with big centeral rock and over hanging tree on the right' which is a bit vague... also 2 types can be combined together to give a better idea of the river

As for types how about this

'Basic Moving Water' - Moving water where the difficulty is within the ability of a BCU 2 star paddler to run (presuming supervised and lead). Ability to use water features such as eddies is not nesicarily required. Some hazards may be present but are avoidable for the most part. Consiquences low. Generally covers grade 1 to 2 rapids

'Intermediate Moving Water' - Moving water where conifidence in running rapids is needed. Ability to use water features like eddies desireable. Lines may be bouncy with obstructions (such as rocks) in places. Considseration needed and unexperianced paddlers need appropriate leadership. Consiquences medium, swim chance reasonable for a BCU 3 - 4 star paddler. Generally covers grade 2 - 3 rapids

'Advanced Moving Water' - Moving water where clear moving water skills are needed and river running knowledge is good. Abilities to use water features such as eddies is a must. Appropriate support strongly recomended. Hazards frequent including big waves, continuous and blind corner rapids and drops. Consiquences high, injurys when swimming possible and swmins may be long as getting out may be an issue. Swim chance reasonable for a BCU 4 - 5 star paddler. Generally covers grade 3 - 5 rapids

'Localised' - Water where people centeralise and do not go far. Get on and get off points tend to be the same. Generally applies to Lakes and ponds

'Touring' - Waterway, lake or river where a distance may be traveled over a couple of days. Not commonly paddled for touring reasons but short paddles may be common

'Classic Touring' - Traditionally paddled waterways and rivers with well known features, routes and amenities. Access issues are not a problem and resources to paddle these routes are easy to get hold off. Multi day trips are common. River may have points of interest along the route which people actually paddle the river for

'Remote' - Waterways, lakes and rivers where the distance from any form of aid is a couple of hours away by paddle/foot. Care should be taken, prior planning and prep should be conducted. Recommended the paddling is conducted in groups with local authorities notified of your route and intentions.

'Wilderness' - Waterways, lakes and rivers where the distance from any form of aid is a couple of days or more away by paddle/foot. Full planning should be made prior to paddling and authorities should know of your route and intentions. Experiance of self reliance is recommened.

Ok thats pretty much what i had in mind. The deffinitions and structure is obviously open to discussion/change and more 'types' can be added in as needed (if needed). What do you guys think?

Pollitt 22:16, 21 August 2007 (BST)

I like Pollitts' grade description. However whilst easy enough to grade each rapid in an order it will make little sense without a guide map. The issue of grading is big, as stated (people reading their own forms etc...), I think that is just something that we have to live with but with a note in the Grades template that it might be good to mention both usual grade and highest grade before spate.

Perhaps we should think of a basic format for a river guide map??

I like the terms for more generalised and assume this would be an overall 'rating' for the waterway, not several ratings per river/section. However perhaps it may be too many different categories, I think a more simplified version. I am afraid no real idea but just trimming the above down, perhaps something along these lines:

Moving Water: Grade 1 - 3

Moving Water: Grade 4 - 6

Calm Water: Day Trip (1 day or less)

Calm Water: Multi Day Trip (2-3 days)

Calm Water: Expedition (3 days and portages)

Titles unknown.

Lakeland Pete 23:09, 21 August 2007 (BST)

I like the idea of having more general descriptions combined with more precise grading (eg II(IV)) described earlier, which we can use definitions already on the net for (will dig out later). For descriptions I wouldn't like to be too prescriptive or start talking about BCU *s or whether people should be led or supervised. My thoughts are:

Tripping - river or canal of any length, with little scope or infrastructure for multi-day camping trips (eg. most canals, Leam, Lugg, Barle)

Touring - river long enough for multi-day paddling with enough infrastructure (eg campsites or suitable spots) to make this possible (eg. Wye, Severn, Spey)

Sheltered Water - small lakes (eg. lakes in country parks)

Open Water - large lakes (eg. Ullswater, Derwentwater, Loch Lomond)

Canal - fairly obvious

That gives you a fairly good number of combinations (eg. look for a touring river of grade 1 or 2). Regardless of what people think of river grading it's the most common method used to rate rivers so I think we should stay with it.

Amelia 23:26, 21 August 2007 (BST)

Been having a bit more of a think about this, and am now straying away from just using the numberical gradings to indicate difficulty. As a variation of above with some more of Pollitt's definitions brought in:

TYPE

Tripping - Little scope or infrastructure for multi-day camping trips (eg. most canals, Leam, Lugg, Barle)

Touring - Scope for multi-day paddling with enough infrastructure (eg campsites or suitable spots) to make this possible (eg. Wye, Severn, Spey)

Playing - Limited area/length of water, suitable for playing or skills development (eg. very small lakes, playspots)

DIFFICULTY

A

Open Water: Sheltered, small

Rivers: No/low flow easily paddled against, no hazards. Includes canals.

B

Open Water: Large, sheltered areas but can get serious in bad weather

Rivers: Easy moving water, no hazards but may be difficult to paddle against (eg. Avon)

C

Open Water: Exposed or remote lakes. Sea lochs that simple easy planning.

Rivers: The kind of rivers used for introducing people to whitewater. Likely to challenge, but if it all goes wrong lines don't need to be precise, swimming/recovery is easy, and boats/people are unlikely to be injured (eg. Barle). includes easy moving water with weirs that are normally run (eg. Lugg).

D

Open Water: Sea lochs/coast which need tidal planning and are vulnerable to bad weather. Very remote lakes.

Rivers: Generally need to have prior experience on easier whitewater. Lines are fairly obvious but if you stray off the line likelihood of boat damage and minor injuries to swimmer. Paddlers need to be able to follow a line and be reasonably confident getting into and out of fairly small eddies.

E

Open Water: Exposed coasts. Sea lochs requiring very precide planning. Very large or wilderness lakes.

Rivers: Need to be able to paddle precisely. Hazards frequent including big waves, continuous and blind corner rapids and drops. Minor injuries when swimming very likely, risk of serious injuries. Rescue difficult, swims may be very long.

F

Open Water: n/a

Rivers: Very high level of paddling skills required. Hazards include large drops and precise lines on blind corner rapids. Serious injuries likely. Rescue very difficult or impossible, swims will be very long.

G

Open Water: n/a

Rivers: Suitable only for highly skilled paddlers in specialist boats. Very high risk of serious injury/death. Rarely run.

Amelia 12:42, 22 August 2007 (BST)

I'm keen to avoid defining our own grading system. I think we suffer grades on river pages as that is the norm but we stick to the standard grades and stick a big disclaimer on them.

The descriptions concerning remoteness and other dangers, that's good stuff but could simply be put in the text description. I also like the idea of a little set of logo's, like in the SCA guidebooks. If we had same small images for each possibility we could use a template to display the relevant images in a nice wee bar.

Charlie 21:53, 22 August 2007 (BST)

I had a look at the water 'types' you've set up Charlie and they look good to me. I think you're probably right about not reinventing the wheel, but by combining it with the types you've setup a fairly comprehensive system :-)

Amelia 20:41, 23 August 2007 (BST)

River

Standard grade system I still think is best (II/III style).

The problem with adding headings such Classic, Touring, Remote etc... means that more subjective categories are included. To my mind the rivers should just be left at the grading style and text will explain to people the nature of the river.

Lochs/Lakes

It still raises the question of how to grade open waters.

I like some of the suggestions made but feel that for open waters the categories should not be numerous (say 3) and should be fairly succinct to allow easy grading for all posts.

Should that then be categories based on Trip length, Access or Shelter/exposure or something else.

I think that just one area should be chosen, and that reference to the others should be made in general text.

I like the Idea of a category based on size/exposure as it links into the others but not sure how to catagorise something like that.

Any Ideas?

Lakeland Pete 23:23, 23 August 2007 (BST)